Pen, Paint, and a Lifelong Friendship: Anya Blakeley and Mike Tran

00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:10,900 [Announcer]
[gentle music] From Northern California, it's the PenPals.Buzz Prison Pen Pal Podcast. Now, here's your host, Big Steve. 

00:00:10,900 --> 00:00:36,920 [Steve]
Joining us today we have Anya Blakely, a visionary artist in Maryland whose artwork involves bringing to light all of the social issues surrounding incarceration and our legal system here in America. She, uh, ended up becoming lifelong friends and pen pals with a man who was incarcerated for conspiracy to commit murder. Anya, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for taking time to chat with us today. 

00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:38,820 [Anya]
Hey, thanks Steve. Thanks for inviting me. 

00:00:38,820 --> 00:00:57,500 [Steve]
I'll tell you what, I was preparing for this interview, uh, last night and this morning, and I had to keep slapping myself because I kept getting distracted by all of your amazing artwork. I'm, I'm on the page and I'm thinking, "Okay, what can I ask her today?" And instead I'm scrolling through all of your paintings and I'm like, "Oh man, this is really great stuff." 

00:00:57,500 --> 00:01:00,220 [Anya]
I started out creating art, 

00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:45,480 [Anya]
uh, a lo- very long time ago, like more than 20 years ago. I, I can't really, uh, back it up that much. But when I was burning out from a job in the criminal legal system. I was working in administration as a drug and alcohol program developer and administrator, and I just was like fried. And so I quit my job and I took some art classes, and in those art classes, I found that art was very healing for me emotionally and, uh, working through some of the traumas that I had been through personally. And I looked for a program that, uh, was specifically designed for art and healing. From there, it just like spiraled. 

00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:52,240 [Steve]
I didn't see like one specific site, but I saw you on several. If people just search Anya Blakely art, they're definitely gonna- 

00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:52,270 [Anya]
Sure 

00:01:52,270 --> 00:02:13,660 [Steve]
... be able to see some of the stuff. It's great stuff. I wanna back up. Six years ago, George Floyd gets murdered and you wrote to us that you were looking for a constructive way to express your anger and your despair from that incident. Tell people what you did at that time and how did that lead into meeting a prison pen pal? 

00:02:13,660 --> 00:02:51,799 [Anya]
Yeah, that was a horrible moment in history and I'm mostly an introvert. So because I am an introvert and because I'm an artist, I wanted to find a way to put art into those feelings that I had. So I just, you know, did a little search and, and, uh, found art and, and, um, and incarceration and I found a program in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania that was focused on supporting women with life without parole sentences and trans individuals. And I wrote to a couple of women in that program a couple of times, and then I never heard back from them. 

00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:52,380 [Steve]
Mm. 

00:02:52,380 --> 00:03:18,020 [Anya]
And then through that I found an organization called the Justice Arts Coalition that happened to be in Maryland and I was really excited about that. And so I, you know, did some more digging and looking and there was an amazing program there that had a pen pal art- artist from the inside and artist from the outsides connected through, um, a pen pal relationship. 

00:03:18,020 --> 00:03:28,680 [Steve]
That's designed to be kind of like a mentorship. Like, so you have an artist from the streets who can connect with an artist who's inside and they can kind of bounce ideas off each other and- 

00:03:28,680 --> 00:04:03,180 [Anya]
Yeah. Actually, you know, one of the really cool things about that program, which I'm sorry to say is no longer running, was that they really encouraged their outside people to approach the relationship with openness and care and develop their own relationship with the inside artist, depending on, you know, how, whatever they wanted to do. You know, whatever their flow was. They didn't have any kind of like rules or regulations or, you know, this or that. So it wasn't a mentorship per se. It was- 

00:04:03,180 --> 00:04:03,400 [Steve]
Mm-hmm 

00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:44,140 [Anya]
... two equals, two equal artists meeting in a space and creating that space together. The Justice Arts Coalition as it was, uh, had lots of exhibits. So they actually really promoted people, uh, artists from the inside, their work. They got grants for that work. And, uh, I had written to a couple of different artists before I met Mike Tran. So, you know, I learned a few of the ropes also about, you know, writing to people inside, you know. And, um, when Mike and I started to write, it was just like an automatic hit because we were just coming from the same place. 

00:04:44,140 --> 00:04:44,520 [Steve]
Okay. 

00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,400 [Anya]
And his wo- he's an amazing artist. 

00:04:47,400 --> 00:05:03,860 [Steve]
So Mike Tran, so, so you're writing to him and it starts out through this program and you start out as, as pen pals and you said you'd had some experience with other pen pals in the past that maybe didn't work out, so you kinda knew certain things that you told him you weren't interested in. Is that right? 

00:05:03,860 --> 00:05:26,910 [Anya]
Yeah. We were really great in the first two exchanges back and forth and back and forth, uh, in setting boundaries for our friendship. And uh, you know, I just said really frankly, "Hey dude, you know, I'm not inter- interested in any kind of relationship. You know, been there, done that. And, uh, I'm not interested in like, you know, supporting your commissary or- 

00:05:26,910 --> 00:05:26,910 [Steve]
Right 

00:05:26,910 --> 00:05:30,660 [Anya]
... anything [laughs] like that. What I'm really interested in is you- 

00:05:30,660 --> 00:05:30,670 [Steve]
Uh-huh 

00:05:30,670 --> 00:05:36,710 [Anya]
... personally as an artist." So I just like put it out right up front, you know? It's just like, "Okay, don't waste my time." 

00:05:36,710 --> 00:05:36,740 [Steve]
Yeah. 

00:05:36,740 --> 00:06:16,732 [Anya]
You know? And he wrote back and he, uh, was able to meet me. He said, "Well, that's great. I'm, I've been in a long-term relationship. I'm not looking for a relationship either. What I'm looking for is somebody who might be able to tell me what they see in my art or might be able to support me in, in, um, you know, understanding a little bit more about the outside art world." He had written 450 letters to outside galleries and things like that prior to me, uh, connecting with him, and had very, very little success. Even though he's [laughs] like an incredible artist, he just didn't know enough about the way that the art world ran in order to get his work out there. 

00:06:16,732 --> 00:06:28,932 [Steve]
Mike was incarcerated in California, and you guys wrote for years. I mean, what... Other than art, which I imagine was kind of the first connection that made everything happen, what other types of things did you write about? 

00:06:28,932 --> 00:07:17,352 [Anya]
It's interesting. You know, when we first started writing, it was all about art. That's one of the things, the guidelines that we set up is, like, let's keep this art-related, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he said in his, you know, one of his letters, he said, "You know, I may say some things about my life inside, and if that's okay with you. And I want you to know that you can always tell me no, and you can always, you know, set boundaries and, you know, I will respect those." So he was always extremely respectful. And as we got to know each other, it just developed into an extremely strong friendship. And so I have to say he's my best friend now, and I think he would say the same. Uh, [laughs] it, it's just been an amazing journey together. What have we shared? Everything. I mean- 

00:07:17,352 --> 00:07:17,372 [Steve]
Wow 

00:07:17,372 --> 00:07:35,032 [Anya]
... literally everything. Uh, he went through a breakup, uh, about two years in and, uh, you know, we went through that together. And, um, you know, I was able to get an art show going bet- you know, between the two of us. And- 

00:07:35,032 --> 00:07:39,572 [Steve]
A duo exhibit, is that what that's called, where you can kind of both be part of the same- 

00:07:39,572 --> 00:07:39,602 [Anya]
Yeah 

00:07:39,602 --> 00:07:40,852 [Steve]
... exhibit? That's cool. 

00:07:40,852 --> 00:07:54,452 [Anya]
Yeah. We did that, and then I, I was also, uh, successful in getting his work into, um, the American Visionary Art Museum, uh, which is here in Baltimore, and it's currently showing. 

00:07:54,452 --> 00:08:05,952 [Steve]
And let's just clarify to everybody, this is, uh, there's no romance here, right? This isn't a, a boyfriend/girlfriend thing. This is a platonic friendship that has grown over all of these years. 

00:08:05,952 --> 00:08:13,592 [Anya]
Y- you know, it's really interesting, Steve, that you ask that question, because one of the things, we are so extremely close. 

00:08:13,592 --> 00:08:14,232 [Steve]
Mm-hmm. 

00:08:14,232 --> 00:08:28,832 [Anya]
And, uh, we have not physically met. And when there's a male-female thing, you know, exchange going on, I think that it's easy to get into, like, wishful thinking and romance and all of that kind of stuff. 

00:08:28,832 --> 00:08:29,292 [Steve]
Right. 

00:08:29,292 --> 00:09:05,282 [Anya]
What we have decided or chosen or however you wanna call it is that we don't define our relationship. There are times when there's incredible love, and I actually, I would have to say it's more like unconditional love and positive regard towards each other that we have. And so it, in a... all, it feels above, like, romantic love to me. You know, it's hard to answer because I don't know that a lot of people have that in their lives, and we have been able to establish that. 

00:09:05,282 --> 00:09:15,692 [Steve]
That's, uh, that's beautiful, really. I mean, you've been, you've been writing all these years, and then at some point you're able to talk on the phone for free when California passed a- 

00:09:15,692 --> 00:09:15,702 [Anya]
Yeah. [laughs] 

00:09:15,702 --> 00:09:39,672 [Steve]
... a law allowing free phone calls. How did that change? Everyone now, Anya, they want, they wanna skip the letter-writing. They wanna, you know, "Oh, it's cheaper to talk on the phone. Just call me." And so that's happening now on our pen pal site, but I often worry that could completely change the dynamic if you get a call before you really get to know who the person is. If you guys just started out on the phone, do you think things would be the same place they are now? 

00:09:39,672 --> 00:09:57,672 [Anya]
I don't think so. You know, S- uh, Steve, I think that the letter-writing, and, um, I think we wrote letters for probably two years, uh, before we did phone calls. We did some of the 15 minute every 10 days or something like that into the second year, I think. Um, but they were, 

00:09:58,752 --> 00:10:03,492 [Anya]
you know, they were few and far between and, and you know how the system, the phone calls go. 

00:10:03,492 --> 00:10:04,652 [Steve]
One minute remaining. 

00:10:04,652 --> 00:10:24,742 [Anya]
Yeah. It's terrible, you know. And, and then of course if there's a lineup, you know, the, the p- he wanted to get off the phone even at one minute so that the next guy could get hi- in and get his time, you know. So yeah, it was, it was kinda crazy. So yeah, I don't, I don't think we would have been able to establish the kind of, uh, bond that we have right now- 

00:10:24,742 --> 00:10:24,742 [Steve]
Yeah 

00:10:24,742 --> 00:10:52,012 [Anya]
... if we hadn't had two years of writing. Because we were, it was a safe environment. I have to say that for myself and also probably for him. You know, we did have those boundaries and all that kind of stuff, but we really learned deeply about who each other was and what they were about and what their interests were and the way that their, our lives were and things like that before we even did the phone calls. The letter-writing was essential. 

00:10:52,012 --> 00:10:58,572 [Steve]
Yeah. And Mike recently got some good news from Governor Newsom here in California. What, what happened there? 

00:10:58,572 --> 00:11:15,812 [Anya]
He got a phone call from the governor's office saying that they were recommending him for commutation and reducing his sentence and to have, um, t- for immediate release. So then he just had to go through all the jumps to get, you know, through the, uh, parole process. So he- 

00:11:15,812 --> 00:11:17,082 [Steve]
And he actually got out- 

00:11:17,082 --> 00:11:17,082 [Anya]
He got out 

00:11:17,082 --> 00:11:18,792 [Steve]
... because normally, normally when they say- 

00:11:18,792 --> 00:11:18,882 [Anya]
He got out 

00:11:18,882 --> 00:11:22,962 [Steve]
... "Immediate release," it's like seven years later you're finally out. So he got out, like- 

00:11:22,962 --> 00:11:22,962 [Anya]
I- 

00:11:22,962 --> 00:11:24,052 [Steve]
... fairly quickly. 

00:11:24,052 --> 00:11:27,672 [Anya]
Yes. You know, I, I, I think that there's, like, 120-day- 

00:11:27,672 --> 00:11:27,872 [Steve]
Mm 

00:11:27,872 --> 00:11:34,492 [Anya]
... thing, uh, in the state of California. And I have to tell you, Steve, that all the way to the 120 days- 

00:11:34,492 --> 00:11:34,952 [Steve]
Oh, yeah 

00:11:34,952 --> 00:11:42,552 [Anya]
... there were so many things that he had to jump through and so many little system fails that went along the road. 

00:11:42,552 --> 00:11:51,362 [Steve]
I imagine myself on day 119 and I'm sitting there still and I'm thinking, "There's no way. I'm not getting out," you know? [laughs] And then the magic door opens. 

00:11:51,362 --> 00:11:51,392 [Anya]
Yeah. 

00:11:51,392 --> 00:11:52,892 [Steve]
Wow. That's so awesome. 

00:11:52,892 --> 00:12:27,268 [Anya]
Yeah. Well, actually, at 30 days, uh, you know, he was getting anxious and he talked to his supervisor and he talked to, uh, you know, the, some of the officers within the prison. And they were like, "Yeah, we don't s- you know, this, we don't see this, we don't see that. As far as we know, your parole data's set at, you know, in the future sometime." And- So, you know, we tracked things down, and I actually called the governor's office a couple of times, and they pushed it through. So it's like, yes, read it. Uh, you know, listeners, please, you know, support your, your folks all the way to the gate [laughs] 

00:12:27,268 --> 00:12:27,358 [Steve]
Right. Yeah 

00:12:27,358 --> 00:12:33,728 [Anya]
... because it's necessary. Ever think that they're taking care of it, because they're not. 

00:12:33,728 --> 00:12:43,407 [Steve]
You mentioned that, uh, a little earlier you hadn't met Mike in person, but now he's out. Do you have plans for maybe meeting at some point down the road, or have you talked about that? 

00:12:43,407 --> 00:13:39,508 [Anya]
You know, right now is a, um, tender time for him. He, he's only been out for a little more than a month, and he is in a safe, uh, transition house. You know, he wants to get his life stable before we meet, which I totally respect. And, uh, you know, he's gotten all his paperwork done, and he's gotten a car and, you know, right now he's in the process of, uh, getting it registered and, and fixing it and all of those kinds of things. And, you know, the job is next. And so, yeah, uh, he's going to find out if he can get, um, a travel permit to come to see his show here in Baltimore, which is what I'm hoping for. I know he's hoping for it also, but that's my big hope, that he can see his work in a museum. And if not, then, um, we'll work it out where I'll come there for a few days, um, you know, to, for a visit. So we're looking forward to it very much so. 

00:13:39,508 --> 00:13:45,928 [Steve]
For the people listening around Baltimore, what's the name of the museum again, and, and how long will his, uh, exhibit be there? 

00:13:45,928 --> 00:13:59,948 [Anya]
It's the American Visionary Art Museum, and his work will be in the Fantastic Reality show until, I believe, it's September 15th. Could be the 18th, but right in there in the last, those last few days. 

00:13:59,948 --> 00:14:17,628 [Steve]
You know, Anya, there's so much stigma around prisoners, around pen pal friendships. It's really bad for us when, when you're a pen pal company and you've got states like Florida and Missouri, they have these strict no pen pal rules. They say it's bad for everything. You know, it's too dangerous, too risky. 

00:14:17,628 --> 00:14:17,928 [Anya]
Mm-hmm. 

00:14:17,928 --> 00:14:39,088 [Steve]
I appreciate you sharing your story to allow other people to hear all of the good that can actually come from something like this. I find it particularly enlightening or interesting that, you know, this all started from your anger over the George Floyd incident, your anger over, I'm sure Derek Chauvin, who gets convicted- 

00:14:39,088 --> 00:14:39,098 [Anya]
Mm-hmm 

00:14:39,098 --> 00:15:05,488 [Steve]
... of murder. And then you end up writing to someone who obviously wasn't the same situation, but someone who was incarcerated for a serious crime himself. And I, I, I just feel like it almost goes full circle there. As we try to reduce the stigma, a lot of people ask us, "You know, does it matter? If I get a prison pen pal, should it matter what their crime is? Should it matter what they did, or should we really just look at who they are today?" 

00:15:05,488 --> 00:15:32,288 [Anya]
I think that's so important, Steve. J- the Justice Arts Coalition, one of the things that they said was, "We would invite you not to look up this person's crime. They're already under scrutiny. They already have had lots of negative bias towards them. And this way it would allow you to establish a relationship as equals." And I thought, "Oh, wow, that's kinda interesting, right?" [laughs] 

00:15:32,288 --> 00:15:32,768 [Steve]
Yeah. 

00:15:32,768 --> 00:15:35,908 [Anya]
I have to admit that I did look him up [laughs] 

00:15:35,908 --> 00:15:36,408 [Steve]
Mm-hmm 

00:15:36,408 --> 00:15:49,808 [Anya]
... and I did not have an immediate, uh, response. And I have to say also that I have written to a number of other people with some other offenses that were difficult for me to process. Let's put it that way. 

00:15:49,808 --> 00:15:50,268 [Steve]
Okay. 

00:15:50,268 --> 00:16:19,748 [Anya]
And I will say that I have kept those things, as much as possible, out of my mind as I establish a relationship with that person. So I do believe that it's possible to have a pen pal relationship with someone and see them as an equal, and to develop that relationship as an equal, because that's what we did. And to tell you the truth, that's why I came onto this podcast, Steve. 

00:16:19,748 --> 00:16:19,938 [Steve]
Mm-hmm. 

00:16:19,938 --> 00:16:55,458 [Anya]
Because I know the importance of it, human being to human being, you know? And I, and this is such a successful, uh, relationship that we have been able to establish, and I wanna encourage people to do that. And I want, and to encourage people to look at their own biases and to, you know, open their hearts to another person who is definitely dealing with a lot of trauma on the inside and needs support. And not only that, I wanna say that he has supported me incredibly- 

00:16:55,458 --> 00:16:55,478 [Steve]
Mm 

00:16:55,478 --> 00:17:12,068 [Anya]
... in my life. And the work that I'm doing now is a direct reflection of my relationship with him. So you never know what's gonna happen as you allow a relationship to d- you know, to unravel or blossom or however you wanna put it. 

00:17:12,068 --> 00:18:04,718 [Steve]
So few people ever think of it that way or talk about it that way. It's always, uh, you know, the free world people is going to save or fix or rescue the person who's incarcerated. A lot of times it goes both ways. Sometimes maybe even the, in some cases the, the incarcerated person helps the free world person more. We've even had instances, um, with people on our site where, I mean, it's anything, depression, divorce, a death in the family, grief, you know, trauma, childhood abuse, all these things that people deal with. And, um, for whatever reason of their, you know, choosing, they opt to write to a person who's incarcerated. And I think a lot of times they don't feel as judged. Like, okay, they're, they're in prison. They're not gonna judge me for all of the crap in my life that I, I share with them. It, it's just almost like a, almost like a free, y- you know, in some way, like a free therapy- 

00:18:04,718 --> 00:18:04,728 [Anya]
[laughs] 

00:18:04,728 --> 00:18:11,628 [Steve]
... for a lot of people. Like, I can, I can pour my heart out to this guy and he's not gonna judge me, 'cause he's where he is, and vice versa. So you now- 

00:18:11,628 --> 00:18:11,638 [Anya]
Yeah 

00:18:11,638 --> 00:18:17,160 [Steve]
... as a result of all this, you're- Volunteering at a men's facility, is that right? 

00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:34,540 [Anya]
Yes. I, you know, I, uh, go in once a week, and I hold space for men to create art, and I've been doing it now for two years. And it is the highlight of my week, I have to say. Uh, I have men who have never done artwork since they were in the second grade. 

00:18:34,540 --> 00:18:34,620 [Steve]
Mm-hmm. 

00:18:34,620 --> 00:18:48,469 [Anya]
And they come in, and they're, you know, nervous and fearful. And, um, you know, by the end of a year, 'cause that's as long as they can be in this particular program, um, you know, they're doing four foot by six foot paintings. [laughs] 

00:18:48,469 --> 00:18:48,520 [Steve]
Wow. 

00:18:48,520 --> 00:19:22,850 [Anya]
I mean, it's really quite amazing. Yeah, and, and I don't have any kind of a structure around what they do. Uh, they are free to do whatever they want, which is another really important thing, I think, because there is so little freedom inside. So, um, you know, to be able to come and create as they wish. And, you know, I've had guys making, uh, 3D cars and spaceships and, you know, writing, you know, four-foot love letters to their daughters and, you know, j- just really, really beautiful things. Really beautiful things that have happened out of it. 

00:19:22,850 --> 00:20:16,400 [Steve]
I'm so glad they get that freedom in there. I'll be honest, I'm a terrible artist, and I still remember. I'm, I'm still scarred. I'm scarred from this experience. I think it was second grade, and, uh, they wanted us to draw trees, and apparently my trees just looked like lollipops. It was just like a stick with a round, you know, top on there. And the teacher was, uh, disgusted by what I had done and kept referencing the "Roses Are Red" song by Harry Chapin. You know, "There's no way to see flowers any other way than the way they've always been seen. Roses are red, green leaves are green, do it the way we tell you." Really stifled the creativity. But here's the thing. Later on, we were at, uh, Coco's, this little, uh, restaurant in Southern California, and sure enough, there were my trees in the parking lot. There were a stick with almost like a topiary circle on top of the tree. And I said, "See?" 

00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:16,730 [Anya]
Yeah. 

00:20:16,730 --> 00:20:20,490 [Steve]
"I'm a damn good artist." So, but stifling that creativity- 

00:20:20,490 --> 00:20:20,490 [Anya]
Yeah 

00:20:20,490 --> 00:20:24,990 [Steve]
... that was 40-some years ago, and that stuck with me now. Like, I, I... It... And so you don't- 

00:20:24,990 --> 00:20:24,990 [Anya]
Yeah 

00:20:24,990 --> 00:20:28,240 [Steve]
... wanna do that to anybody, especially people inside. 

00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:45,420 [Anya]
Yes, that's absolutely true. And, uh, one of the other things that Mike has really supported me in in my inside work is how not to be, uh, critique their work, but just to ask them trauma-informed questions like, "What do you like about this?" 

00:20:45,420 --> 00:20:45,840 [Steve]
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

00:20:45,840 --> 00:21:08,170 [Anya]
Or, "What don't you like about this?" Or, w- you know, "What does this mean to you?" You know, those kinds of questions instead of going, "Well, this could be blue or black or, you know, if you did this or that." Which I have to say, I do come from, you know, a background where, you know, uh, there is critique, and so I have to watch myself, um, and do more inviting than, you know, critiquing. 

00:21:08,170 --> 00:21:08,200 [Steve]
Yeah. 

00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:14,220 [Anya]
But yeah, it's amazing when, when people have the freedom to express, they're 

00:21:15,260 --> 00:21:17,680 [Anya]
unbelievably, uh, creative. 

00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:22,700 [Steve]
I've read about something. You're writing a, a workbook, or you've written a workbook for the prisons as well? 

00:21:22,700 --> 00:22:17,800 [Anya]
Yes, I'm in the middle of writing, um, a workbook, or several, [laughs] um, for people who are inside or for, uh, re-entry programs or recovery programs, because that's the kind of background that I come from, using art and writing, uh, as the medium for understanding oneself. And one of the important things that I have in this workbook, Steve, and I think it may be more important than any of the exercises that are offered, is that I make the invitation for volunteers, therapists, anybody who's working on the inside, to really look at their own self and their own reasons for why they may have chosen the careers that they've chosen. And to, you know, take a look at their own history- 

00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:17,810 [Steve]
Mm-hmm 

00:22:17,810 --> 00:22:54,070 [Anya]
... just like the people who are inside who are in recovery programs are being asked to do, because that is what's gonna heal society, I believe, is if we all start looking at our own self and our own wounds, our own traumas, and, um, our own levels of, uh, power imbalance and structure and, uh, you know, all of those kinds of things. Learn how to communicate, learn what our beliefs are, learn whether they're ours or they were inherited. And then, you know, we'll have a, a healthier society, like I said. 

00:22:54,070 --> 00:22:54,080 [Steve]
Yeah. 

00:22:54,080 --> 00:23:07,880 [Anya]
And art and writing happens to be really easy ways to go inside, because there's no judgment there, and to have that private moment with oneself to really reflect on what is the truth. 

00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:26,780 [Steve]
That is so crucial. I mean, I just completely agree with that. And sadly, uh, most of the staff, all they really know about each and every inmate in their facility is that one-page pre-sentence investigation talking about the night of the crime. Man, but that's not who they are. That's not their life. 

00:23:26,780 --> 00:23:47,560 [Anya]
Well, and, you know, I mean, I have to... I look at, uh, COs, you know, who are in, uh, authoritarian positions, and I have seen and heard, you know, some horrible things, difficult, challenging things. And, you know, I have to wonder what kind of backgrounds they came from, what kind of abusive environments they came from. 

00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:47,900 [Steve]
Mm-hmm. 

00:23:47,900 --> 00:24:23,480 [Anya]
Why they chose a position of power over others, because really, we're all sensitive human beings. And so, you know, we are molded by our environment, and that's the same for a CO as it is for administrator or for, uh, you know, a therapist or anybody else. And so that's the invite that I'm making, uh, which is a bold statement, I believe, you know, through my workbook, and I intend to license it through Creative Commons so that everybody can get ahold of it that wants it. Because I think this is key. 

00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,380 [Steve]
We gotta call it Check Yourself. 

00:24:25,380 --> 00:24:29,940 [Anya]
Yeah, right? [laughs] Everybody do their own checklist, right? 

00:24:29,940 --> 00:24:47,560 [Steve]
[laughs] Anya Blakey, it's been, it's been great having you, and, and congratulations. This is, I mean, such a great story of friendship, and, and, uh, give our best to Mike when you do talk to him. Hopefully, um, you guys can hang out at the exhibit here soon. That'd be amazing. 

00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:59,060 [Anya]
Yeah. Thank you so much, Steve, for the invite. I just really wanted to share my story with your listeners, because everybody deserves that second chance. So thank you for all the work that you're doing. 

00:24:59,060 --> 00:25:16,160 [Announcer]
It's lockdown time for Big Steve, but he'll be back soon with another edition of the penpals.buzz Prison Pen Pal podcast. To be a guest on our show, email podcast@penpals.buzz, or call 888-2PEN-PAL. 

00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:16,640 [Music]
Oh. 

00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,140 [Music]
This could be the best thing that I'll ever know. 

00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:23,300 [Music]
Mm. 

00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:29,560 [Announcer]
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