"Nobody Understands Our Love Story -- Matthew Reynolds Speaks Out"

[Operator]
This is a free call from... 

[Matthew]
Matthew Reynolds. 

[Operator]
An incarcerated individual at Great Plains Correctional Center. It will be recorded and may be monitored. You may start the conversation now. 

[Matthew]
Hey, listen. 

[Big Steve]
Hey, Matt, how you doing? 

[Matthew]
I'm doing all right. How are you? 

[Big Steve]
I'm okay. It's, uh, good to have you back on the show. I, I looked, I looked it up and it was... you were the very first episode of 2026. We had you back on January 5th is when, uh, the episode aired. It's good to have you back, man. You wrote us about a 10-page letter, which was a very heartfelt, gripping, emotional letter, and you wanted to kinda get more of your story out there to the world. So I appreciate that, so people aren't just wondering, "I wonder what, wonder what his story is." It starts with, "You may think you know what happened when you read my charges, but you'd be wrong. Why am I here? I'm locked in a concrete box, unable to meet my strongest physiological need because I fell in love with a girl, and I'm still in love with a girl." It's a powerful opening. Before we delve into that relationship, can you give everybody a little, uh, insight as to what you actually did that caused you to get arrested other than being in love, and maybe a little bit of detail so that we know what we're talking about? 

[Matthew]
Just a relationship with somebody considered underage. 

[Big Steve]
And what are the-- what's the law there in, uh, Oklahoma for the age of consent? 

[Matthew]
Um, 16 for sure. 

[Big Steve]
16, so she's under... How old was she at the time? 

[Matthew]
She was younger than that. Uh, it's a much more complicated story. It'll go... Can't really get into the full picture, but I just wanted to get the point across that- 

[Big Steve]
She was younger, so she was 15, 14, 13, somewhere in there? 

[Matthew]
Yeah. 

[Big Steve]
Okay. And, uh- 

[Matthew]
I was- 

[Big Steve]
And you were how old? 'Cause- 

[Matthew]
In my 30s. 

[Big Steve]
Okay, so you're in your 30s. She was 13, 14, 15. I don't know. You don't need to tell me, but- 

[Matthew]
It wasn't, it wasn't like I tricked her or I forced her, or I wasn't even pursuing a relationship. We were in each other's lives and progressively got closer, and our relationship shifted. 

[Big Steve]
Okay. 

[Matthew]
And it's not like she wasn't even pursuing me, getting in trouble. There was somebody on the outside. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah, what happened, man? 'Cause I know from, uh, the people that I've known in the past and how, how usually it's, like, a parent that finds out or a, a relative or something goes wrong and they get mad and they're like, "Now I'm mad at you. I'm gonna tell on you." Like, is that sorta how it went down? 

[Matthew]
Basically, my sister got it in her head that I was holding this girl captive and not letting her go anywhere and forcing her to be a sex toy, essentially. 

[Big Steve]
Okay. 

[Matthew]
And none of that is remotely true. 

[Big Steve]
How did, uh, how did the two of you meet? 

[Matthew]
Um, I, I don't wanna get into that. 

[Big Steve]
Okay. Online maybe, or no? 

[Matthew]
It was a, a natural meeting. It wasn't like I was stalking people online or anything like that. It was completely innocent. 

[Big Steve]
All right. 

[Matthew]
Um- 

[Big Steve]
Yeah, I'm not, I'm not trying to throw you under the bus here, but you have to see it, like, from our view here. You write us a 10-page letter and you say, "I wanna get the real story out there." And then if you don't wanna tell the real story, then people are gonna think, "Hmm." 

[Matthew]
Oh. 

[Big Steve]
And, and so I... And, and I can't really promote a, a love story if s-- imagine if she was eight. I don't know how old she was, right? But let's say she was eight and you were 34, and I'm putting this podcast out. I can't be like, "Oh, man. Poor Matt." 

[Matthew]
Just my point is that we were, we were both in a happy, healthy relationship. 

[Big Steve]
Mm-hmm. Okay. 

[Matthew]
And- 

[Big Steve]
You guys did, like, cosplay together, right? That was one of your- 

[Matthew]
She was well-informed. 

[Big Steve]
One of your activities? 

[Matthew]
Yeah. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. What was, like, a normal... Like, what was a date night like with you and her? 

[Matthew]
Just like it would be for anybody else. I mean, we'd go out to dinner, we'd go to a movie. People assumed we were married. 

[Big Steve]
They thought you were married? All right. 

[Matthew]
It wasn't like we were getting looks or anything like that. 

[Big Steve]
So I... No, I get it. Um, you write the first line here in this letter, "You may think you know what happened when you read the charges, but you'd be wrong." And so I'm guessing the story the prosecutors had, I'm sure there was parts that you felt were misleading, and those were probably parts of, like, what you just mentioned before that your sister had, had wrongfully said that you were keeping her hostage or something like that. Is that kinda the stuff they tried to pull out, uh, for the trial or- 

[Matthew]
Yeah. Just this whole elaborate story that paints me as something more akin to, like, the governor from The Walking Dead. 

[Big Steve]
Right, yeah. 

[Matthew]
It's not true. 

[Big Steve]
I mean, you wrote then that it was like a real love story and that you guys were pursuing a future together, and you wrote that your relationship with her is your Mona Lisa and that you guys were both happy and that she has suffered now because you're gone. How do you know that she's suffered? 

[Matthew]
From people that knew us both, um, telling me things, which- 

[Big Steve]
Okay. 

[Matthew]
I mean, she's actually been held, been kidnapped since- 

[Big Steve]
Mm-hmm 

[Matthew]
... since I've been locked up. 

[Big Steve]
You're kidding. Right. 

[Matthew]
Yeah. 

[Big Steve]
Been, like, kidnapped by, by who? 

[Matthew]
She's been raped, she's been beaten, she's been forced into drugs and probably other things related to that, and it's just a really bad situation. 

[Big Steve]
Oh my God. I'm sorry to hear that. So- 

[Matthew]
Right. 

[Big Steve]
Is she, uh... Well, and you can't talk to her, right? They told you you're not allowed to contact her? 

[Matthew]
No, I'm not allowed. I'm not allowed to, and I have reason to believe that she doesn't know that. 

[Big Steve]
She can reach out to you if she wants. You're the one that has the no contact order, but do you think she's ever even tried to, uh- 

[Matthew]
Yeah 

[Big Steve]
... be like, "Matt, what's wro..." You know? 

[Matthew]
She tried to text me. I think it was while I was on house arrest, but I didn't have my phone, um, because I was in a, a mental health facility. And the person that had my phone would open it and read the message, and then- 

[Big Steve]
Yeah 

[Matthew]
... she's responding or continuing to message saying like, "I can see you read it." 

[Big Steve]
That's gotta be tough for you. Was there a plea deal, or was this a trial, or at what point did they tell you you can't contact her? 

[Matthew]
It, it might have been... I mean, I hadn't been able to contact her once the accusations were made, but I think during the, the plea hearing is when it was made a permanent order. She could go and she could get it removed if she wanted to. I just don't think she knows that. 

[Big Steve]
She's still under 18, though, right? If I'm doing the math, or no? Is she over 18 now? 

[Matthew]
She's over 18. 

[Big Steve]
Or at least over... I guess over 16 is all she'd have to be there in Oklahoma. 

[Matthew]
She's 18- 

[Big Steve]
Okay 

[Matthew]
... by a bit.

[Big Steve]
So if she wanted to, she could get it removed. You don't think she knows that there's a no-contact order? 

[Matthew]
Well, no. Apparently she was telling her friends that when I get out, she wants to be back with me, and the hope of that keeps me going. 

[Big Steve]
Man, I wish, like, I wish we could just... I know we'd be violating a no-contact order, which I just can't do, but man, I would, I would, uh... In, in another situation, I'd, I'd totally love to call her and just ask her what's going on, you know? But I know I can't do that, unfortunately. It would make for a good podcast as well, but I don't wanna get in trouble. That's gotta be tough. 

[Matthew]
Yeah. 

[Big Steve]
You know, and she could... Not to give anyone ideas, but it's not so hard if, uh... You, you could log on to Securus and write in the name Jimmy Jimmystein and have an account on Securus. So, I mean, if she were really motivated to get in touch with you, I'm, I'm sure there's a way. But the problem is, it's always gonna... You know, with the guards and the cops and security and all this, eventually, it might not be tomorrow, but they'd always... They, they always find out in the end, man. They always, always in the end, they get you. The shit comes back. And even if they don't, even if they don't find out, then you're, like, living every day of your life like, "Oh, shit. Are they gon-- Is today gonna be the day they catch me?" You know? And, and that's no way to live, man, living, like, in fear every day you're gonna go to the hole, and you don't wanna, like, look behind your back and worry about that shit. And it's just easier to... Oh, I hate to say it, 'cause rules suck when you're in there, but it, it's definitely... [sighs] It sucks, but it's easier to follow the rules than to cause drama and- 

[Matthew]
Yeah. I'm not, I'm not to cause any issues. I, I haven't been written up. I don't intend to be. 

[Big Steve]
So you... In, in this letter, you, you also referred to her as your soulmate. Um, you said that outsiders forcibly separated you and that 

[Big Steve]
horrible things wouldn't have happened if you'd been allowed to live your lives 

[Big Steve]
in love. So I don't know. That's, that's interesting stuff. And I guess the question now is, do you think there's anything that could help you move on? Because it... You know, let's say we, we find, uh, someone that's interested. You have a lot of... I mean, your, your... Stuff we covered on the last podcast with the animals, I mean, there's some fascinating stuff. And I know, um, some people reached out to us and said, "Man, I-" 

[Matthew]
Yeah. I just, I just wanna say as far as the ending and talking about her is, if me being locked up for 20 years is the price of knowing her and spending time with her, then it was worth it. 

[Big Steve]
What about you? The thing I'd worry about for you, Matt, is that you would have... You know, I met my wife on a, on a pen pal site, and I tell people that, and I met a lot of good people when I was locked up, and I was there for 11 years. I had just gotten divorced from my first wife when I had gone in. But had I been... I don't wanna say fixated, but I will. Had I been fixated on my first wife while I was in prison, I wouldn't have been able to let anyone into my life, right? I'd be like, "Man, you're really cool, but man, I, I miss my wi- I miss my ex-wife." And I'd hate for you to be there for 20 years and have opportunities. 

[Matthew]
No, I, I'm not opposed to letting somebody in. I just wanna be honest to the fact that I still care. 

[Big Steve]
You had a TikTok video made with a, a love song, which I assume was about her, on the TikTok video that we did for you. 

[Matthew]
If she got the lyrics on there, yeah. 

[Big Steve]
No, I heard the lyrics. Yeah. It was a powerful song. I wanna just transition a little bit. I'll still... We can talk more about her, but you have this love for animals and- 

[Matthew]
We don't need to- 

[Big Steve]
... you're, you're a caretaker. We saw in the first episode how genuine... You, you, you would do anything to help those animals, and you felt genuinely sad when you learned that one of them had passed away. Do you think there's a connection with that kind of... your caretaker mentality where you would do anything for somebody that you loved? And then we try to connect that to this relationship that you speak of. Do you see a connection there with the, the way your mind works? 

[Matthew]
Sure. Yeah. 

[Big Steve]
But I'd just like you to be able to... I mean, I, I know you're always gonna have her in your mind. You had, uh, memories together. You won't ever forget those. But hopefully we can find somebody, preferably over 18, who can, uh, call you or write to you- 

[Matthew]
Right 

[Big Steve]
... or message you on Securus. I think you made even a joke on the last, uh, episode, if I remember, that they could even be in their 50s or 60s. [chuckling] I was like, I was like, "Older is fine." I think you said something along those lines. And so any age, if you're over- 

[Matthew]
Yeah 

[Big Steve]
... 18. Matt Reynolds is 2014486, Great Plains Correctional Center in Oklahoma on SecurusTech.net. 

[Operator]
Thank you for using Securus. Goodbye. 

[Big Steve]
Dang it, man. I thought we had more time. Thought it was gonna be a 30-minute call. I guess they cut us off in 20. Hoping that Matthew Reynolds will call back, 'cause I have a lot more questions to ask him, and I'm, I'm, uh... I hate when, like, the interview just ends in the middle of an idea. [chuckles] Uh, see if Daisy... I, I messaged Daisy to see if she can get him back on the line here. Um, and I think she's gonna be coming in here in a, in a few minutes once she get out. There's a customer on the phone right now, and once she gets off with them, uh, she'll come in, and we can at least talk about, uh, what we heard so far in the interview. I- I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts too if you're listening. It's, uh, 888-2PenPal is the phone number, 888-273-6725, or you can email us your thoughts. And this one, I'd, I'd especially like to hear, uh, any thoughts you might have on this matter, podcast@penpals.buzz, podcast@penpals.B-U-Z-Z. Are you able to... Is he gonna call back, or are we just waiting to hear on him? 

[Daisy]
I, I sent him a message, but I know Securus, it takes some time- 

[Big Steve]
Yeah 

[Daisy]
... sometimes to approve those messages, so. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. So I don't know. We were hoping he'd, uh, call back. I actually thought... I thought we have 30 minutes, and we only had 20 minutes with Matthew Reynolds. And dang it, Daisy, that big letter he wrote, and I have all these questions.

[Daisy]
I do too. [laughs] 

[Big Steve]
And we can't ask him anything. You were out, you were out, uh, working hard and you kinda overheard some of the stuff. What stood out to you? You were, like- 

[Daisy]
I think it was the sister thing. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
Like, I don't think out of all people... I always assume it's gonna be, like, you know, the parents of the girl, you know, that are gonna find out- 

[Big Steve]
Right 

[Daisy]
... and then report him. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
But it was, like, actually his sister. That kinda caught me off guard because I'm like, oh, you know, like- 

[Big Steve]
What- 

[Daisy]
... I wouldn't have expected that. 

[Big Steve]
If you were a sister and you had a... if you had a brother who was doing that, would you just, like, not report it? 

[Daisy]
I feel like at that age, like, me being a girl that at one point I was that age, like, our minds are, like, still not fully there to comprehend, like- 

[Big Steve]
Yeah 

[Daisy]
... oh, this is good or, or, oh, this is bad. I definitely woulda had a talk with him before that- 

[Big Steve]
Mm-hmm 

[Daisy]
... and even with, like, the girl and be like, "You know, this is not right." 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
Like, "This is wrong." 

[Big Steve]
It, it was interesting 'cause he says, like, not just his sister turned him in, but that his sister made up this elaborate story that he was holding this victim, this, I don't know, 13 or 14-year-old, whatever she was, as, like, a slave and had kidnapped her and locked her in the house. And, and so it's like, if none of that's true... I mean, maybe it's true, I don't know. But if it's not true, it seems odd that your sister would make up a crazy story like that unless... 

[Daisy]
Yeah, unless, like, they got into a big fight and then, you know, she just kind of added more, 

[Daisy]
you know, like, to the story. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
I mean, regardless, it's a bad story though. 

[Big Steve]
Anya, Anya always... Anya had a brother who... she's a few years younger and, uh, still has a brother, but she tells me, like, when they were growing up, they would always blackmail each other. 

[Daisy]
[laughs] 

[Big Steve]
And, uh, and they would say like, "Oh, I'm gonna tell mom that you did that unless- 

[Daisy]
Yeah 

[Big Steve]
... you wash the dishes." And, and... but this is, like, next level blackmail. This is like, you're going to prison for- 

[Daisy]
Yeah 

[Big Steve]
... 20 or more years. 

[Daisy]
But I think it's more so on him. You know, he's the one that I feel like his frontal lobe is developed [laughs] by now. So I feel like it was kind of on him to recognize, like, this isn't right, you know? But I think for him, it's like he still hasn't grasped that. 

[Big Steve]
I don't think he gets it at all, and that's why people were like, "Oh, man, you were so rude to him," uh, in that... uh, you know, when I was talking to him earlier. I don't think I was rude. It's just it's shocking to me that- 

[Daisy]
You're not rude. You're being real. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
I think that's, like... this is a raw, like, messed up situation, and there's no way to, like, make it sound good at all. 

[Big Steve]
What would make it sound... to me, would make it sound better is if he's like- 

[Daisy]
Oh, if he acknowledged it 

[Big Steve]
... "I did this, but-" 

[Daisy]
Yeah. 

[Big Steve]
"... you know, I was in... uh, it was a really bad choice, and I was in a rough time in my life, and, and I had this, you know, contributing factor." But, but he basically says none of it was wrong and that people didn't understand that they had a loving relationship. But I think he wouldn't... obviously, he, he wouldn't say the age. I think he had- 

[Daisy]
Yeah 

[Big Steve]
... kids standing around him in the day room and, and he's not gonna be like, "Yeah, she was nine," or w- I don't know how old she was, but it sounded like 13 or 14 to me. 

[Daisy]
And I think, like, us working with, like, inmates, we're very, you know... we don't try to judge or we try to, like, hear them out. But I guess, yeah, it would've been better if he would've been like, "I messed up. I did this. I shouldn't have." The whole part of going to prison, right, is rehabilitating. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
But if you're still gonna come out and still gonna be, like, in love with this said, you know, however old she was, like, 

[Daisy]
you really didn't learn anything. Like, now you're gonna go, what, get out and get another girl around that age when you get out? Like, it's... there's so many people in this world, like, to find somebody else. 

[Big Steve]
What'd you think of that letter? It was... I don't know. What was it, a week ago we get this letter? [laughs] 

[Daisy]
It was, it was, like, intense, you know? I wonder what she thinks. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
I mean, I don't know how old she is now or, like, where her head is at now. I'm sure- 

[Big Steve]
I don't know. He did, he did say she's over 18 now, so at the very least, like, she'd be, I think, able to- 

[Daisy]
Yeah 

[Big Steve]
... uh, contact him and say what she thought if she wanted to, but... 

[Daisy]
Yeah. But it's like there's a reason she hasn't. I think she's probably, like, already over that stage. 

[Big Steve]
You talked about, like, the mind of someone that is, say, 13 as a female, and yeah, like, that stage might be... 

[Big Steve]
the way she perceived Matt at 13 could be very different when she's- 

[Daisy]
Oh, yeah 

[Big Steve]
... say, 20. 

[Daisy]
I think now probably she knows it's wrong. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
I'm pretty sure now that he got locked up, she's probably like, "I... we probably shouldn't have been together." 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. Yeah. 

[Daisy]
But then it's like, you never know. I don't know if you heard about that, uh... she was, like, a teacher who was with her student. It was like a- 

[Big Steve]
Was that, like, Mar- I was thinking that... was it Mary Kay Letourneau? 

[Daisy]
Yeah. 

[Big Steve]
Was that the name? 

[Daisy]
Yeah. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah, I was thinking of that and- 

[Daisy]
Yeah, that she, like... he pursued her. They pursued each other even after she got let out- 

[Big Steve]
Yeah 

[Daisy]
... and, like, they stayed together and they remained together. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah, and that- that's the other, I don't know, kinda screwed up thing is if, uh, if Matthew Reynolds was Melissa Reynolds and she was saying that she was 30 and he was 15- 

[Daisy]
Yeah 

[Big Steve]
... or whatever, everyone would be like, "Oh, good for her," you know, or whatever. [laughs] But- 

[Daisy]
Yeah, but- 

[Big Steve]
... when it's reversed, it's like, "Oh, you're a dirty scumbag." 

[Daisy]
'Cause that guy, I think he was, like, 12, right, when they started their, like... when she got with him as a teacher. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
And she didn't even get that much time, even after she, like, violated, like, their no-contact order. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
And it's like Matt gets, like, what, 20 plus years? That's crazy. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah, 20 plus years, but I don't know what's- 

[Daisy]
But I mean, yeah 

[Big Steve]
... I don't know what's in the documents. That's the thing. 

[Daisy]
Oh, yeah. 

[Big Steve]
And he... I mean, he writes and he's... you got the letter from the PO box. I think it had to have two stamps, it was so heavy. There was, like, a ton of pages. Honestly, I'll, I'll admit, I... it was too long for me to read the whole thing. I, [laughs] I skimmed it. Do you know what I mean? I, I, I read most of it, but I was like, "Oh my God, he wrote so much." And he's writing about, like, their love story. I didn't even mention this in the interview, but I guess he wrote a... he wrote a book about her, uh, like a love story that he promised her he would publish, and now he's written this book. And he's trying to get people to type it up for him to get it published. I can't even imagine what's in the book. And then you remember the TikTok video- 

[Daisy]
Oh, yeah 

[Big Steve]
... that he ordered. 

[Daisy]
Like, the song about her. I wonder, like, does he have friends or family that are kinda like... I feel like you have to be raw with him and, and be like, "This isn't, like, normal. This isn't-" 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
"... like..." How do you expect to meet somebody when you're so stuck on somebody that wasn't even, like, old enough at the time? 'Cause either way, if, if it wasn't the sister, I'm pretty sure, like, either eventually it would've been somebody else. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
Like, her parents, you know? Especially if she's, like, super young. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
I'm pretty sure, you know, they couldn't really do couple things like a normal couple would because- 

[Big Steve]
Right 

[Daisy]
... she has school the next day. Like, that... At least that's what I would assume. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. Yeah, and it's, uh, she's def- they're definitely not going to, uh... They might go to Dave & Buster's, but they're not getting a, a alcoholic beverage. 

[Daisy]
A margarita or two. [laughs] 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. They're, they're gonna get a, uh, Cherry Coke maybe and, uh, some fries. I wondered, like, what... And I asked you this a little bit ago in the hallway, like, what he... 'Cause it sounds like he has a, a child from another relationship and- 

[Daisy]
Yeah, I was reading something. I think he has, like, a son. 

[Big Steve]
So I'm assuming he's been with women that are legal age or older- 

[Daisy]
Yeah 

[Big Steve]
... in his past, and I wondered what is it about this particular victim of his, or whatever we wanna call her, 

[Big Steve]
that he was so attached to? 

[Big Steve]
And c- do you think it's just the age? Do you think there's some... 

[Big Steve]
I, I mean, I don't know. Is it her personality? [chuckles] I don't know. 

[Daisy]
And, well, I wonder. I know 13-year-olds don't look like they did when I was growing up. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
Like, they look- 

[Big Steve]
Right 

[Daisy]
... so much more older. 

[Big Steve]
Right. 

[Daisy]
But regardless, it's like, they look older, they're not gonna act older. Like, very rare you'll find a girl that age. I think that's the age of, like, experimenting, like, who I am. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah, they're doing, like, TikTok makeup videos. 

[Daisy]
Yeah. [laughs] 

[Big Steve]
And, uh... 

[Big Steve]
But I assume they met online. He wouldn't tell me how they met. I don't know. I've just got all these questions. We told him to call back. He's not calling back. 

[Daisy]
I think it's hard, like, to admit, like, you're wrong, you know, for him. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
Because people do it all the time. "Oh- 

[Big Steve]
Yeah 

[Daisy]
... I'm in here for murder. I feel awful. I'm spending this time to, like, you know, turn things around." But, um, could you imagine a guy being like, "Well, I didn't think there was nothing wrong with that necessarily"? 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. We had that cat girl from the... or Ash, the Ash Cat pod, you know? 

[Daisy]
Oh, yeah. 

[Big Steve]
And, uh, she did some videos- 

[Daisy]
So pretty. [laughs] 

[Big Steve]
... from some of our members and, and, uh, you know, she would just tear, tear Matthew Reynolds a new one. And I don't wanna... Like, that's never been my style, but at the same time, like I told him earlier, we can't, we can't promote this, like- 

[Daisy]
Oh, like, the good things 

[Big Steve]
... incredible love story- 

[Daisy]
Yeah 

[Big Steve]
... if I don't know how old she was, you know? And even, even now that I do know that, let's say she's 14 and he's 35 or something- 

[Daisy]
Yeah 

[Big Steve]
... I don't know a lot of people that are... 

[Big Steve]
Uh, if I'm promoting that as a love story, you know, uh, they're probably gonna shut this show down, you know? 

[Daisy]
[laughs] 

[Big Steve]
Right? 

[Daisy]
It's... Yeah. Well, I feel like it would've been different if he was like, "Well, I was 21 and, you know, she was 17 or something." But, like, they were super far apart, like, as far as age. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. I hope he... If he calls back, we'll ask him some more. But if not, uh, I don't know. I mean, he'd be interesting to write to. That's what I say about a lot of these guys. I said that about the serial killer- 

[Daisy]
Uh 

[Big Steve]
... Duane Lee Harris. I mean, if you wanna write someone interesting, Matthew Reynolds, 201-4486, Great Plains Correctional Center in Oklahoma. 

[Operator]
[music] This is the Prison Pen Pal Podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts. 

[Big Steve]
All right. We heard back, uh, we heard back from Matt Reynolds just a second ago. Breaking news here at the Prison Pen Pal Podcast. 

[Daisy]
[laughs] 

[Big Steve]
Matthew Reynolds, you asked him, Daisy, to call us back, right? 

[Daisy]
Yeah, I did. 

[Big Steve]
Because we had more questions for him, and he didn't do that. What did he do? 

[Daisy]
Uh, so he sent us a message, um, and I kinda felt like this was coming, you know? I feel like this is one of those situations where it's gonna look bad from all angles, you know? 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
It's not ever... And so he wrote us, and he said, quote, unquote... [clears throat] He said- 

[Big Steve]
Hang, hang, hang on. Let me get the music. 

[Daisy]
Oh. [laughs] 

[Big Steve]
I think we need some... 

[Daisy]
[laughs] 

[Big Steve]
You know what? This music, though, this would be too... [music] That's, like, the only music I have handy right now. 

[Daisy]
[laughs] So it says here- 

[Big Steve]
All right 

[Daisy]
... "My apologies for the poor dialogue. I was not expecting you to lean-" 

[Big Steve]
Nah, I'm cutting that out. Here, start over. 

[Daisy]
[laughs] Okay. 

[Big Steve]
Let's start this over. Sorry about that music. It's stupid. 

[Daisy]
[laughs] Okay, so it says here, um, he responded, uh, through Securus, quote, unquote, he says, "My apologies for the poor dialogue. I was not expecting you to lean so hard into the relationship and thought we'd speak some in preparation prior to recording. I know anything short of the whole story with both perspectives will leave most people assuming the worst, but maybe one person out there will hear it and give me the benefit of the doubt. Anyway, I appreciate the opportunity you provided and encourage you to ask why anyone would use age as a barometer over the combination of experience, knowledge, behavior, and trust. I should have asked on the call as a sort of food for thought." 

[Big Steve]
Why would anyone use age to determine... What he's essentially saying, like, that shouldn't be the factor as to whether it's illegal or not- 

[Daisy]
Yeah 

[Big Steve]
... to be... have a sexual relationship with someone that's 13. Um, but how much... Can you just reread that last line? Why... The barometer line? 

[Daisy]
Oh, yeah. Of course. So he says here, quote, unquote, "Anyway, I appreciate the opportunity you provided and encourage you to ask why anyone would use age as a barometer over the combination of experience, knowledge, behavior, and trust." 

[Big Steve]
So let's throw that out there if anyone has a response. Why should, why should anyone use age- ... as a barometer for that. Um, podcast@penpals.buzz. We were talking about other cultures, Europe and, and Mexico, and, and, uh, in some cultures that's- 

[Daisy]
Normal 

[Big Steve]
... almost normal. Yeah. 

[Daisy]
Yeah, the norm. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. So maybe are we too prudish here in America? Are we too... Or, or should we protect someone that's 13 from a 35-year-old? I, I don't know. 

[Daisy]
[laughs] 

[Big Steve]
What do you guys think? podcast@penpals.buzz. And, and you were 13 once, Daisy. So was I. I- 

[Daisy]
Yeah, I feel like our frontal lobe... I was reading somewhere, I don't know if it's true, our frontal lobe doesn't develop until, like, I think it's, like, between 23 or 26. 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
Definitely not at 13. 

[Big Steve]
So when he's referencing we're looking at age, we're not looking at experience and knowledge and all these other things, but isn't that kind of go hand in hand? Like, when you're 13, how much experience do you have at 13? 

[Daisy]
Yeah. 

[Big Steve]
Right? 

[Daisy]
That was probably, like, her first boyfriend, her first, you know? 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. How much knowledge are you gonna have when you're in eighth grade, right? This is before even pre-algebra, you know what I mean? 

[Daisy]
Yeah. 

[Big Steve]
Like, we're not talking about calculus here. Experience ties in with age. That's the whole point of using age as a barometer. 

[Daisy]
It's kinda hard to side with him, right? It's... I, I was 13 at one point, and I, I don't ever recall, like, being mature or kinda realizing like, "Oh, this is what this is." 

[Big Steve]
We- we've had some 13-year-olds try to send- 

[Daisy]
Oh, yeah 

[Big Steve]
... messages through our site- 

[Daisy]
No 

[Big Steve]
... and that's why we can't... We gotta f- work really hard to filter that. They have so little knowledge that they'll actually write in the message, "I'm 13 [laughs]-" 

[Daisy]
Yeah. 

[Big Steve]
"... and, and my mom took my phone away." One of them said, "My mom took my phone from me 'cause I'm grounded." 

[Daisy]
It's a hard- 

[Big Steve]
Yeah 

[Daisy]
... it's a hard one. Like- 

[Big Steve]
Yeah 

[Daisy]
... it's hard to kind of try to tell somebody, like, "This is wrong," if they don't believe it. 

[Big Steve]
I try to... Like, I have everybody's back, man. You know. Like, we- we've talked to... I mean, we've talked to serial killers. We talked to William Leverett, who's gonna be on the show with an update here coming up i- in a couple weeks, and, uh- 

[Daisy]
But you know what- 

[Big Steve]
... and he, he stabbed a woman in a park and killed her, you know? 

[Daisy]
Yeah. Oh, yeah. 

[Big Steve]
You know, it's- 

[Daisy]
But he had remorse at least, you know? 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 

[Daisy]
At least he was like, "I did this. I'm sorry." 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. 'Cause I try to... I mean, my whole point of this podcast, or at least a big point, is to show the humanity of people that are judged and- 

[Daisy]
Yeah 

[Big Steve]
... looked down upon. But like you said, man, that's so hard when it's like, "Nothing's wrong with what I did," and w- you know? 

[Daisy]
Like, if nothing's wrong, then, you know... Like, 

[Daisy]
how do you get somebody to look past that? 

[Big Steve]
Yeah. Let's, let's, let's get outta here. I guess he's not calling back, but just, uh- 

[Daisy]
[laughs] Food for thought. [laughs] 

[Big Steve]
Food for thought. Take us out. Read that line, that last line one more time, and then we'll get, we'll get outta here. But we're back in a couple weeks. podcast@penpals.buzz if you have thoughts. And I really... I'd love to hear everybody's comments on this. This is, like, a pretty big topic here today. So, yeah, take us out with that last line one more time. 

[Daisy]
Okay. [laughs] And it says here, "Anyway, I appreciate the opportunity you provided and encourage you to ask why anyone would u- use age as a barometer over the combination of experience, knowledge, behavior, and trust. I should have asked that on the call as a sort of food for thought."